Elizabeth Warren Torches Trump IRS Nominee For Not Knowing The Law

Senator Elizabeth Warren: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So the IRS collects nearly all federal revenue and that means that behind every road we build, every Social Security check that we pay is the IRS, making sure everyone pays what the law says they owe. No politics. But Donald Trump has a different idea. He wants to use the IRS to punish his enemies.

On May 2, Trump said, “We are going to be taking away Harvard’s Tax Exempt Status.” Harvard wouldn’t cave in to other demands Trump made, so Trump said he would hurt them using the IRS. Now, this is about more than Harvard. It is a threat to anyone who might displease the President, including the people or organizations that can’t afford to have an expensive legal battle if Trump sets the IRS on them.

So, Mr. Long, when you and I met, I asked you whether it was illegal for the President to tell the IRS to revoke a taxpayer’s non-profit status. And you said in our meeting that you weren’t sure, but you would take a look and consult with lawyers. I sent you the statute, you’ve had three weeks to talk to the lawyers about it, so let’s jump in.

Mr. Long, is it illegal for the President to direct the IRS to revoke a taxpayer’s non-profit status?

Mr. Billy Long, nominee for Commissioner of the IRS: In the first place, he wouldn’t do that —

Senator Warren: That’s not my question Mr. Long. Please don’t start down this.

Mr. Long: Are we on Section 7212 or 7217?

Senator Warren: I’m at 26 U.S.C. 7217. Do I need to read it to you?

Mr. Long: “Prohibits any member of the executive branch to request the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit on a taxpayer.”

Senator Warren: Alrighty. So is it illegal—

Mr. Long: I’m going to follow the law. And if that’s the law, yes.

Senator Warren: Okay, but I want you—that is the law. So I just want to be clear: is it illegal for the President of the United States to instruct the IRS to remove a taxpayer’s non-profit status?

Mr. Long: “Prohibits any member of the executive branch to request the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit of a taxpayer.”

Senator Warren: Is that a yes?

Mr. Long: I’d have to go to the lawyers at the IRS to tell me.

Senator Warren: No. Come on. You just read it.

Mr. Long: I know, but I don’t see the instance that you’re speaking about in there. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t see—

Senator Warren: Look, it says “it shall be unlawful for any applicable person,” which in this case includes the President, “to request, directly or indirectly, any officer or employee of the Internal Revenue Service to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer.”

Is it illegal for the President to instruct the IRS to remove non-profit status from a taxpayer?

Mr. Long: I’m not going to have the answer you need, and I apologize but like I said—

Senator Warren: Why are you not having the answer? You’ve had three weeks to consult with lawyers, the statute is about as clear as plain English makes possible—

Mr. Long: Well, if I say I’m going to follow the law, why would you need to ask me the question?

Senator Warren: Well, because I want to make sure that you understand what the law says. If you think ‘follow the law’ means you just get to make it up on the spot, then bud, you don’t get to be the IRS Commissioner. The point here is to follow the law as it is written and I’m asking what I think is a pretty simple question: can the President of the United States legally tell the IRS to change someone’s nonprofit status?

Mr. Long: I’m not able to answer—

Senator Warren: You can’t read these words and tell what those words say?

Mr. Long: I can read the statute and I did but—

Senator Warren: Alright, then tell me what they mean. What does it mean to say that ‘a person, an applicable person’ here—that’s the President, right?

Mr. Long: Yes.

Senator Warren: Alright, ‘cannot directly or indirectly,’ right?

Mr. Long: (silence)

Senator Warren: ‘Tell any officer or employee,’ that would be you, ‘of the Internal Revenue Service to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer.’ What part do you not understand here?

Mr. Long: It seems to be a non-profit—I don’t see exactly what it refers to—

Senator Warren: Any taxpayer. To start an investigation of any taxpayer.

Mr. Long: If it’s illegal, I’m not going to allow it to happen at my IRS.

Senator Warren: Is it illegal? That’s the question.

Mr. Long: Me and you will be friends then. I want to be your friend anyway but we will be on the same page. I’m going to follow the law, and if that’s point blank the law—

Senator Warren: What do you understand the law to be saying about the President telling the IRS in his dealings with any particular taxpayer? What do you understand this law to be saying?

Mr. Long: I think it sounds like it’s saying what you are saying, but I don’t—I’ve got a little bit of a section here, and I looked at it, I talked to an attorney that used to be at the IRS and now is going to maybe be back at the IRS and I’m sorry if I don’t have the answer.

Senator Warren: What? You mean the lawyers told you that they couldn’t understand this?

Mr. Long: The what?

Senator Warren: The lawyers told you they couldn’t understand this?

Mr. Long: I didn’t say that.

Senator Warren: Well, then tell me, what part do you not understand? It says ‘no person,’ and you’ve said that includes the President, ‘cannot instruct any officer,’ that would be you, ‘of the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation for any particular taxpayer.’

Mr. Long: I don’t intend to let anyone direct me to start an audit for a political reason or any type of reason.

Senator Warren: Does that include the President of the United States?

Mr. Long: Anyone.

Senator Warren: Can you say yes? That the President of the United States cannot tell the IRS what to do.

Mr. Long: I can tell them they’re not going to tell me what to do. I can’t speak for if there’s other agents at the IRS that you’re talking about, but I’m telling you what I don’t want to have happen at my IRS.

Senator Warren: You know, Mr. Long, you’d have a lot more credibility if you would just say yes. It’s clear the statute makes it illegal for the President to direct the IRS vis-à-vis any particular taxpayer. And the fact that you want to sit there and dance around about this tells me that you shouldn’t be within 1000 miles of the directorship of the IRS.